Guest Post: The Problem With White Gay Guys

by Lavern Merriweather

One of the biggest issues President Barack Obama has had to deal with during his presidency has been the demand for marriage equality for the gay population in America. And I say ‘big’ because it’s such a hot button issue for many reasons., the main one being that many consider gay marriage to be an affront to what straight people believe is a ‘real’ union between two people. I’m not here to rehash that debate. What I am here to write about is why I don’t like how most white people who are gay have been framing the argument for gay rights.

Well honestly, I don’t like that many gay white people period, especially after hearing some of the things that they have been saying to defend their right to be legally married just like a traditional couple. I particularly hate it when non-black groups always try to compare their situation to black people, and then, get all huffy when a black person calls them on it. If you don’t like my response then don’t say such stupid, arrogant, selfish, thoughtless, insensitive, insulting things just to make your point.

Racism is not some game with a scorecard and chalkboard diagraming the best moves to win. It’s a very real problem that black people have been struggling with since we reached American shores. And unless you have walked a mile in my shoes, don’t tell me how I should feel when I say that mine are too tight while yours fit perfectly.

Even when they are being insulting, white gay people are still very self-centered when it comes to the fight for gay rights. I have had a number of internet spats with people, even some that are black, who say I should not bring up the fact that gay people have the luxury of nobody knowing just by looking at them that they are gay. Somebody even said to me that you can tell when a person is gay, and I call bullshit, because if I saw 30 people walk past me I couldn’t tell if one of them was gay or if they all were gay. It’s impossible to determine something like that just by looking at a person where as my skin color is an obvious distinction of my race.

A while back my sister and I were talking about this, and she complained that she was sick of the media saying how ‘brave’ Ellen DeGeneres was for coming out. My sister said that she’d bet if the Klan was at Ellen’s front door she wouldn’t be so damn brave then, and I wholeheartedly agree.

Another thing that pisses me off to no end is when white people who are gay flat out refuse to acknowledge their privilege. A white gay person can still catch a cab in 20 degree weather in any major city a shitload faster than I could ever hope to or can drive a brand new expensive looking car and not get stopped once, even if they are breaking the speed limit. Me? Not so much. Hell, not at all!

Recently there was a big brouhaha because the CEO of the Chick-Fil-A franchise said that he was firmly against supporting gay marriage and gay rights. So, of course we have the inevitable white, stupid, clueless, overprivileged liberal asshole commentary about how this is just like what black people have suffered. Oh really, dumbass? Please stop trying to preach this ridiculous pseudo solidarity with me, because you can’t order a fucking chicken sandwich. You haven’t got one clue as to what discrimination truly feels like, nor would you want to find out. Make no mistake those ‘just like the blacks’ gay white people and their supporters wouldn’t want to spend one DAY in the life of a black person or try actually putting that lame theory to the test. Spare me! Most of them love every minute of their privilege and ignorance the same way they love the old, rich, white male guard that has kept them in their higher social status.

Every time I hear white gay people or white female feminists bitch about the Ronald Reagans and George W’s of the world, I want to roll my eyes. Who do they think is keeping them on top of the totem pole? (I’ll give you one hint it ain’t the Japanese.) The truth is they already know that and obviously don’t give a rat’s ass much as they like to make it appear that they care about all gays regardless of race.

Well, if that’s the case then why is it that the face of the gay rights struggle is always a white one? And why is it that gay people’s representation is predominantly white if they are supposed to be so about including everybody? Bottom line, they are not, and not only that, but white gay folks are the most hypocritical, full-of-crap bullies on the planet. When there was legislation in California to ban gay marriage in that state called Prop 8 and it passed, you should have seen the rush to racism by many white gays, the very same people who along with their straight white allies sigh and cry endlessly about black folk’s homophobia and how the black church is trying to keep a gay man down. These people obviously have no qualms about being racist as they want to be, yet act like 4 year-olds if they think those big bad darkies are being mean to them. And to many of them, we are just that not friends, not compatriots, not brothers in the struggle. We’re just a convenient partner when needed and nothing more.

Speaking of Ellen, I thought it was very interesting that she invited actor and “Grey’s Anatomy” star T.K Knight on to whine about how co-star Isaiah Washington had allegedly called him the f-word. Remember, this is the same Ellen who once defended white rapper Eminem despite his blatantly hateful lyrics and disposition towards gay people. But I’m sure that in her little world it’s all just a big old coincidence and not done deliberately. And I’m sure when gay people who are white ignore standing up for any issue not involving them, that’s because they are just too busy.

I have a gut feeling that if homosexuality was only prevalent in communities of color, a lot of white people would be nowhere to be found. It must be because they want to be as invisible for issues pertaining to us as we are to them, unless it’s an issue they want our help with. When stellar comedian Richard Pryor performed at the Hollywood Bowl in 1977 as a request from his friend Lily Tomlin at a benefit for gay people he became so disgusted with their behavior that he called them to the carpet, and then pretended to ‘moon’ them. He later said that not only was the place lily white, but that the crowd there was very disrespectful to a mostly black dance troupe called The Rockers who were big at the time. That doesn’t at all surprise me, and I wasn’t even there. As Brotha has stated many times ‘whiteness is a hell of a drug’. Even to those who bemoan that they are just discriminated against as the people who they stomp on to get to the top of the privileged heap.

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52 thoughts on “Guest Post: The Problem With White Gay Guys

  1. Dear Lavern,
    There’s no moral hierarchy to oppression. It’s ALL wrong. We also know you can’t even tell blackness just by looking at everyone who is. If you could, there would never have been such a thing as “passing”. We need to keep working to reduce all forms of discrimination, any kind you can identify, racism, sexism, ageism – including discrimination based on loving a person of your own gender.

    1. Invisible Mikey,

      I think Lavern’s point to her article is that whenever there’s a movement in which you have white people as the “main characters”, then it’s all about white people. We see this in the feminist movement, the LGBT movement and most recently, the Occupy Wall Street movement. Those white people are not concerned with the uplift and equality of all Americans who are discriminated against. They are mostly, if not always, concerned about what only they want. And at the same time compare themselves with blacks and their struggles to make themselves sound liberal and anti-racist. Yet, whenever black people do participate, some of them reject them doing so.

  2. Great post as always. White gays can always assimilate to white society and go back in the closet. I don’t think black gays and white gays are on the same playing field. And just like the feminist movement they were not for black women and their plight. I feel that white gay men might be racist toward black gay men. I hate a white male gay co worker ask me why the black gay men were more effeminate and outlandish? Really? I am just shaking my head right now. Great post as usual

  3. I meant to say I had a white gay co worker ask me why the black gay men were so effeminate and outlandish? there was a typo in previous comment.

  4. I despise the Oppression Olympics. The very idea that one does not know what “real” oppression is because they haven’t walked in your shoes is both assumptive and biased. In the case of gays, you argue that its easy to hide themselves, but you neglect the idea that one should not have to hide themselves. If you could hide yourself as white in real life, would you? I am bothered by the insistence people make that one can “change” who they are in order to avoid discrimination. Do we not see the blatant irony in that?

    I am disgusted by the assumption you made that Ellen (and by association, other gays) wouldn’t be so brave if the klan was at her door. During the Christian persecutions of Japan and Rome, many willingly went to death so as not to deny who they are (easily hidden, ne?) and their allegiance to Christ. Are martyrs only in religion?

    I just don’t know what to make of you Lavern, other then you are grossly misinformed. When you write about the black community, you make excellent assertions and well-researched arguments. When you write about other communities, such as this and your occupy wall-street article, I feel as if I’ve stumbled onto Fox News for all your egregious misinformation.

    But perhaps you just want to rant carelessly? Not really find out what the issues are, or get to know the players, but instead superficially determine what may be the case and assume it must be true? I don’t know what could have motivated you to write such a misleading post. But I do implore you, in the future, to not play the oppression olympics again, as it is a vile and horrific game used to separate people with common experiences and goals, particularly those who fight against the battle of whiteness.

    1. wanpimao,

      I believe Lavern’s point is that most of the time, it’s privileged groups who play the “Oppression Olympics” when they compare their problems with that of blacks. Sometimes, and I’ve seen it, they believe their problems are more imperative than blacks and other POC. To some blacks trying to fight oppression that’s offensive to place someone else’s above the struggles blacks are going through. It’s like saying that black people are exaggerating or that they have no reason to complain or whine, as some people would call it.

      I also believe Lavern is trying to say that one can hide their sexuality visibly in order to survive. They shouldn’t. I agree, but in this world, covering up can guarantee some safety. POC, on the other hand, can not hide the fact they are POC because people can see color. There is no doubt that we live in a world where image is everything. Sure, they can get make up and surgery, but through it all, they are still POC in a white man’s world.

      I can only say that Lavern is speaking not only from research, but from experience. She’s taught me that not everyone who’s fighting against whiteness are on the same page, especially when it comes to the black community. Some will use whatever means necessary to get a leg up over others and they will use whiteness to do it. It’s not to be slanderous. It’s to be honest. Not everyone fights for the liberation and freedom of other groups. To some it’s a battle to the top.

      1. I disagree. The oppression olympics is the name given to a stance where one cannot know oppression because they have not experienced what another has experienced. It is not an issue of saying we’ve been through what you’ve been through; it’s saying you haven’t been through shit because you haven’t walked in my shoes.

        In all my years of experience those who have played this game the most have not been the privileged. Those with privilege have attempted to bring themselves down to the level of others, not make their plight greater than others. That the two of you believe such screams of bias.

        While I am often against making assumptions, in this case I can only surmise that Lavern, and possibly you, have not spent much time in the LGBTQ community or even getting to know them. Had you, then there are a few things you may have noticed:

        * POC in the LGBTQ community often do not consider themselves part of their ethnic community. Do you know why this is? Because while they are ostracized in the dominant culture for being a POC, they are also ostracized in their ethnic community for being gay. Suddenly, they fit in nowhere, except in the LGBTQ community where they are welcomed with open arms (even by white gays)

        * The LGBTQ community doesn’t focus around whiteness, it focuses around gayness, or queerness (part of the new lexicon).

        * All these accusations that Lavern levied at white gays, were also levied (although, possibly unintentionally) at POC gays because white or of color, they have a shared experience.

        Do not underestimate the community. They do not separate themselves the way that you may separate them. These are brothers in arms who have all been shunned by their own communities, white and of color, they have all come together under another banner of oppression. For you to so casually dismiss what they’ve gone through, and continue to go through, just because it hasn’t been the same or as bad (in your opinion, of course) as what you’ve gone through is the same technique of invalidation that whites use on the black community.

        In other words, nobody cried because they couldn’t eat some chicken. They are upset because a prominent figure publicly supported a hate group that worked to deny them civil rights. And you honestly consider that whining? I’m appalled that you would dismiss anyone’s attempt at equal rights.

      2. I think the point of this article is to say that no one can truly know what the other is going through, BUT the one who is unaware will be the first to tell you that you shouldn’t think or feel the way that you because other issues matter. And sometimes they put theirs above others.

        Maybe you haven’t experienced it, but that doesn’t make it true. Yes. Those with privilege bring themselves down to the level of others or at least try to. However, there are those who are privileged who would scoff at such a thought. They can’t and won’t experience what it’s like to have so much as a taste of losing their privilege. Some will have the audacity to tell the underprivileged what to think and feel according to them, and they will argue that other issues are more important. How do I know this? I’ve experienced it first hand.

        I know LGBT people are ostracized in their own communities as well as in the mainstream. That is true. But you can’t say that some white gays don’t show off their racism. Sure, they are all a part of the LGBT community, but you can not say that race doesn’t play a factor. It has happened before whenever white LGBT members organize something only for the benefit of white LGBT members with no LGBT’s of color in mind. They thing the struggle is all about them and that is detrimental to the movement for all who fit that category.

        Whiteness is a part of society where white supremacy governs everything including the LGBT community. Whiteness can be at the forefront of any movement. If it is, POC of any sexuality is always shortchanged.

        Neither I, nor I think Lavern would dismiss anyone’s attempt for equal rights. However, I agree that some movements were conducted with marginalized members of the white community in mind. Again, this is true in feminist movements and the Occupy Wall Street movement. White people who participated only thought about themselves and not others who suffered worse, and when certain members outside the group tried to join in, they were ostracized. So, how can such movements help women and people in general when those within the movement make it about white entitlement?

      3. “I disagree. The oppression olympics is the name given to a stance where one cannot know oppression because they have not experienced what another has experienced. It is not an issue of saying we’ve been through what you’ve been through; it’s saying you haven’t been through shit because you haven’t walked in my shoes. In all my years of experience those who have played this game the most have not been the privileged. Those with privilege have attempted to bring themselves down to the level of others, not make their plight greater than others. That the two of you believe such screams of bias.”

        No. Oppression Olympics is a name given to a belief that you can derail discussions about one oppression by saying, “Well these people have it worse and they aren’t complaining.” You make your plight more important than others by delegitimatizing their experiences and implying that yours are more important. THAT is Oppression Olympics. Its treating oppression like a competition instead of something no one should go through.

        “While I am often against making assumptions, in this case I can only surmise that Lavern, and possibly you, have not spent much time in the LGBTQ community or even getting to know them. Had you, then there are a few things you may have noticed:”

        Your making a big assumption. And just in case you don’t believe their experiences I can give you my own. I am a PoC in the LGBTQ community, and damn right I consider myself a part of my ethnic community. It sure wasn’t the gay community that let me feel like an important, valued person. It was the black and PoC communities (and even the straight, white military communities) that made me feel valuable. The gay community tried to tell me I was “stud” or nothing, because as a darker skinned PoC, I had little options otherwise.

        “* POC in the LGBTQ community often do not consider themselves part of their ethnic community. Do you know why this is? Because while they are ostracized in the dominant culture for being a POC, they are also ostracized in their ethnic community for being gay. Suddenly, they fit in nowhere, except in the LGBTQ community where they are welcomed with open arms (even by white gays)”

        Lets not speak for PoC in the gay community please. The gay community doesn’t welcome me with open arms, I am regularly reminded that I must fit a box because my skin says I can’t be desirable or valued. I am kept out of the public sight and people regularly equate being white to being gay, often leaving people like me out of the equation. Acts of violence against people like me is often ignored, and white gays have had no problem resorting to bigotry in the name of “Preference” or to get back at “homophobic PoC”, as if people who are PoC can’t possibly be gay. The gay community refuses to acknowledge the intersectionality of our experiences until it is convenient, and even then we take a back seat.

        “* The LGBTQ community doesn’t focus around whiteness, (part of the new lexicon) it focuses around gayness, or queerness ”

        And yet the only people of importance, the only people who are fought for our seen as victims worthy of empathy are white gays. Why? I believe that when I see more white gays marching for PoC gay victims of violence than PoC are.

        “* All these accusations that Lavern levied at white gays, were also levied (although, possibly unintentionally) at POC gays because white or of color, they have a shared experience.”

        Not true. I never saw that. I saw someone frustrated at the idea that gay people compare their struggle to the ongoing struggle of being black. Black people still experience racism, it didn’t suddenly end. So this isn’t some be all to end all for any oppressed group to latch onto. PoC gays are expected to be “gay first” to the point where they are used as fodder, only to be cast out and left to themselves when its time for a scapegoat. Look at Prop 8. Suddenly black gays were being treated with racism from their own gay “community” because in the end, whiteness decided all blacks were the same. That gay community you put on a pedestal, that you claim welcomes PoC with open arms, cast us out, unless we fit some fetish ideal. Black skin is not going to be white gay’s ticket to extra privilege, while poC are expected to still sit in a heirachy where they are still at the bottom. PoC gays were left out of the mainstream gay community and many white gays supported segregation. So, implying that the experiences are the same when skin color plays such a big part in people’s lives is just wrong.

        “Do not underestimate the community. They do not separate themselves the way that you may separate them. These are brothers in arms who have all been shunned by their own communities, white and of color, they have all come together under another banner of oppression. For you to so casually dismiss what they’ve gone through, and continue to go through, just because it hasn’t been the same or as bad (in your opinion, of course) as what you’ve gone through is the same technique of invalidation that whites use on the black community.
        In other words, nobody cried because they couldn’t eat some chicken. They are upset because a prominent figure publicly supported a hate group that worked to deny them civil rights. And you honestly consider that whining? I’m appalled that you would dismiss anyone’s attempt at equal rights.”

        Oh yes they do. Trust me. My experience has proven this fact time and time again. We are not under one banner of oppression because white gays still are white, and we still are not. Society sees them as white first, then gay. Just because you expect PoC to cast their racial identities aside for your convenience doesn’t mean we don’t know whats up. You still make the mistake of acting like white community and black community cannot intersect with the gay community. It does, often. Often it does this to the expense of PoC, especially trans PoC and women.

        And comparing a fast food restaurant to hundreds of years of systematic oppression (oppressing that white gays actually benefitted from, keep in mind) is just wrong. White gays are still white.

        It bothers PoC that white gays use our stories of oppression to their own benefit, while not viewing our oppression as a priority. If white gays were more honest about how society views them in relation to us, and maybe actually included PoC instead of just our stories, we might feel differently. But when they bring up seperate water fountains while young black people are felt up and shot by cops for just existing (without a peep from the gay community) it gets tired. We are PoC who happened to be gay, we don’t suddenly lose our racial baggage just because we are LGBTQ.

    2. Sorry I wasn’t trying to play Oppression Olympics I was just saying that if you want to keep comparing your struggle to mine then as a white person who is gay you should also acknowledge the rights and benefits that your whiteness gives you that I will never experience. And in fairness I didn’t say ALL white gay people are like this I’m talking of the Elllen and Dan Savage types. White people who have a higher rung on the ladder yet will still ‘woe is me’. Please there is so much shit you have to suffer as a person of color esepcially a black person just by default I seriously doubt many whites who are gay can say that. And yes there is a lot of discrimination in the gay community like there is discrimintaion in every aspect of American life. Let’s get real here there are many white people to whom racism is as natural as the air they breathe so let’s stop acting like the gay community is exempt because they suffer too. Being picked on doesn’t mean you can’t be a bully yourself and in some cases even more so because you feel so slightly you have to find someone else to make feel even more like crap about themselves than you do. Many white people who are gay will do this even as they pretend to be allies. You can’t be my friend and my tormentor at the same time and you can’t keep preaching solidarity with me while you run back to the powers that be and play buddy buddy with them also when it suits you

      1. Sorry it’s taken me a moment to get back to this. I’m well aware that you don’t mean “all” white gays, and in the future, unless someone makes a reference to such, lets just assume we all understand that.

        However, you did put an overwhelming white racist face on the LGBTQ community, which is what I disagree with.
        And let me ask, just what is it you are asking for?
        You’re wanting Dan Savage and Ellen to talk about their struggle, but to append with “but we’re also privileged”? That’s not how it works.
        When the Asian community talks about it’s struggle, should it also append it with the privileges it does receive? When the Japanese community remembers how it’s rights as citizens of the US were stripped from them, and all their possessions taken as they were placed in internment camps where one couldn’t even go to the bathroom at night without a spotlight and a gun on him, should it remind everyone about how they received reparations? Perhaps they should also point out how they also have the highest percentage of college graduates? Those privileged Japanese, they’ve not had to struggle nearly as much as say, the black community.

        That’s what I hear when you say that if someone is going to compare their struggle to yours, then they should at least acknowledge their privilege. I hear, “yeah, you had to struggle too, but you still get things I don’t, so it’s not as bad.” <– that is the very essence of the game called the Oppression Olympics.

        And tell me, at what point have you ever heard Ellen or Dan Savage deny that they have privilege from being white? Is there any chance at all that what you *have* heard is ignorant, white gays participating in talks about privilege deny having such (as most ignorant whites tend to do) and you have projected those expressed feelings onto LGBTQ figureheads such as Ellen and Dan Savage, and even on the wider LGBTQ community?

        Struggle is struggle, and at no point in time is one struggle ever comparable to another. To even attempt comparison is to do a disservice to both. To insist that another group that has faced discrimination needs to "remember its privilege" only serves to invalidate their struggle. *That* is the underlying message that bothered me about your essay.

      2. Wampimao, here’s what I gather.

        You are trying to say that comparing struggles is at the fault of the least privileged. That is to say that those with SOME privilege, but are still overprivileged above many people, do not pull such tricks. In other words this sounds dangerously similar to blaming the victim and protect the privilege. It also seems like you’re trying deliberately to understand her point and are faulting her for making an article that gears toward comparative suffering.

        Here’s the deal, I agree that a struggle is a struggle and we shouldn’t compare one’s struggle with others. However, Lavern is stating that certain white LGBT members do that. They take advantage of that, and refuse to link their struggle with anyone else’s only when and if it’s convenient to them just like straight white people.

        I don’t think she’s putting a racist face on the whole LGBT community. She’s merely calling some of them out. If you think otherwise, frankly, that’s your problem, and to deny that truth is PART of the problem. Period.

        Yes. The LGBT community have struggles and I support their efforts. However, I will not support ANYONE who’s agenda supports certain people or themselves.

      3. @brothawolf

        That is not what I’m trying to say, and I apologize if I was unclear.
        It is one thing to compare struggles in an attempt to empathetically understand each other. It is wholly another to compare them so as to win a game of ‘who’s got it worse’.

        Lavern says, ” I particularly hate it when non-black groups always try to compare their situation to black people…”

        Why is that? Let me not put words in her mouth, but I wonder if you can figure out why I have a problem with that statement. Let me add that the rest of the sentence refers to one getting “huffy” when their comparison is called out by a black person. Called out for what? It was clear to me that Miss Lavern believes that non-blacks shouldn’t get upset when a black person points out that their oppression isn’t comparable to the black communities.

        Lavern may have been writing specifically about white gays this time, but her words reflect an older argument that has been heard 1000 times before, by many different groups.

        “Racism is not some game with a scorecard and chalkboard diagraming the best moves to win. It’s a very real problem that black people have been struggling with since we reached American shores. And unless you have walked a mile in my shoes, don’t tell me how I should feel when I say that mine are too tight while yours fit perfectly.”

        How does the logic fit into this paragraph? Who’s got the scorecard? It first appears that she’s saying we shouldn’t keep score, then turns right around and assesses values.

        And black people are not the only ones to have struggled with racism since reaching American shores (or since Europeans reached American shores). Every group, that was not a part of the dominant culture, has experienced discrimination/racism.

        But Miss Lavern disagrees:

        “You haven’t got one clue as to what discrimination truly feels like….”

        Unless you have been through what she’s been through, your “so-called discrimination” is minor. At least, that’s how I hear it.

        These are the problems I have with this article, and I can only surmise that you and I are coming from different perspectives. It’s likely I’m coming from the perspective of having heard the “you ain’t got it as bad” argument. Step outside the gay debate for a moment and realize just how easily you could substitute any other group in this diatribe.

        And what is it that you want from me? You want me to admit that their are racist whites in the LGBTQ community? I’d have to be a fool to think otherwise. You want me to admit that there are white gays who compare their struggles? Well, yes, of course they exist (plenty of them) and of course, they are also wrong in doing so.
        You want me to agree that we shouldn’t support agendas that only support some people? Well, of course, we shouldn’t.

        However:
        “I agree that a struggle is a struggle and we shouldn’t compare one’s struggle with others. However, Lavern is stating that certain white LGBT members do that. ”

        Ok, yes she is (and they do), but then she turns right around and does the exact same thing. What’s the word for that?

        I agree that some do need to be called out, but she didn’t just call out some. She encompassed the LGBTQ community as an overwhelming white face, compared the struggles of the LGBTQ community to the black community, and in the process, said the LGBTQ community had nothing to really complain about (at least in comparison). She then had the nerve to insult some of their frontmen saying they wouldn’t nearly be so “brave” if they had to deal with “real” discrimination (such as the klan showing up at their door).

        TL;DR

        Nobody wins the Oppression Olympics.

  5. It’s not only gay whites who refuse to recognize their white privilege. I am a heterosexual white and I refuse to recognize white privilege as well. I am not saying this to troll this blog. I support black pride and I support civil discussions on Rae issues.

      1. Is their white privilege as far as I can tell? First of all I do think calling it white privilege oversimplifies it. in the USA we have a situation where race and class have historically been tied together so you could say there is in a sense white privilege however I don’t think you can say all whites are privileged. I don’t even think all upper class people are privileged even though most are.

        Also we have situations where sometimes middle and upper class black people are mistreated due to their race… However I would never refer to a wealthy black person as under privileged. But overall I do understand what people mean when they say white privilege but I think the term oversimplifies things and using the term white privilege can alienate oppressed social classes of white people from uniting with other social classes of people who would benefit from social change.

        And also just to be fair to rich people many rich people are good people who are fighting for social change so I am not trying to incite class hatred against the wealthy.

        I sometimes have read people say that white privilege sometimes manifest in the thoughts and feelings that some whites may have about certain things… I do think its a stretch though to define privilege as encompassing the very thoughts of people because in that case in order to fight privilege on that level you would have to police people’s thoughts and some people believe there are ethical considerations that would come into play when talking about policing people’s thoughts or policing people’s attitudes.

        So any discussion on privilege I tend to only discuss material aspects that can be measured like wealth and various indicators of well being but I guess I am open to discussing psychological stuff as well if someone brings up stuff related to that.

        I just want to say that there is diversity within the white race and while many whites are privileged there are some lineages of white people that experience various sorts of oppression from generation to generation whether it be cycles of inter generational poverty or inter generational alcoholism or other sorts of things… Even inter generational problems with law enforcement… So I just want to say there are nuances.

        Also not every black person is oppressed in America even though if you look at black people as a social class there is a certain general sorts of oppression based on historical legacies.

      2. Race and class can intersect, but they can also separate into different oppressive constructs. White privilege exist to benefit those with white skin. The lighter you are, the more likely you won’t have to suffer certain adversities based on skin color. But it’s only to a certain extent.

        White privilege operates in which material possessions and wealth don’t have to be part of the equation. You can be poor and still have certain privileges over middle and upper class blacks. For example, a poor white man driving a used car will not be stopped by police nearly as much as a rich black man in a classy, new car. Police will usually think that the black guy is a drug dealer because it contradicts stereotypes such as blacks are poor, blacks don’t like to earn money and black don’t like to earn money legally. What’s even more shocking is if there are drugs in the white man’s car, but the black man has no drugs, the latter will still likely be stopped for drug possession.

        You see how that goes? There are many examples in which white privilege does not coincide with class privilege.

      3. The only way white privilege can be damaged significantly is if, and only if it is acknowledged on a national level and work is done to rework the systematic racism that enable it to exist.

    1. Hmm you can drive a brand new Mercedes yet not get stopped while if I even LOOk at new expensive car cops will want to haul me away sounds pretty simple to me.

  6. What I find strange is that white females who believe in white privilege think the fact they are female means they don’t share in white privilege even though half of their ancestors are white men. Also when all those white men were making money who were they working for? The white men were working to enrich white women. White women are the most privileged of the whites. I am not saying this to make people hate white women I a just saying the truth about white women.

    1. I believe white women have privileges of their own that not even white males can have because they are females. Yet, white men have privileges white women don’t. So, it’s not quite an issue who has the more privileges because in the end there are other groups with disadvantages because of society’s hook on privilege.

    2. White men are the most privileged. The dominant culture of America is that of the white, heterosexual, Christian male. The further you are away from that, the more privilege you lose. Any sociology book can tell you this.

      1. Ummm… You mean the white women who stay at home and have their white man fork over the money he made are less privileged than him? I guess because something is written in a book it must be true, right? I have nothing against women being stay at home moms, its the most important job in the world the job of mother. But look at statistics. Men die in war, men die doing manual labor, men get hurt doing manual labor, men live less long than women, women often win in custody cases, women get less jail time for statutory rape, women rarely get jailed for assault if they hit a man, and the list goes on.

      2. @seedofjapeth

        You are assigning value to things that are subjective. You assign a higher value of staying home than to working. However, there are plenty of people who would do the opposite.

        It is not a matter of one book stating the fact. It is a matter of many (most) experts in the field agreeing. Your opinion of subjective matters does not change the overwhelming evidence that ,when it comes to privilege, the white, heterosexual, Christian male has the most access to resources and wealth in America.

  7. I think Isaiah Wahington’s career is ruined from that faux pax he made about his Grey’s Anatomy co -star. Whites make gay slurs make a fake apology and keep it moving. I don’t think Washington has been in anything. They made him go to a sensitivity training.

  8. Excellent as always, Lavern. 😉

    You could say literally the exact same things about white feminists as well. It seems they are cut from the same racist, exclusionary cloth.

      1. Meaning, if PRIDE itself was an inclusive movement, we wouldn’t have Black Pride, Hispanic Pride, etc.

        I think that if those individuals within the “splinter” groups felt that their voice and concerns were heard, they wouldn’t make their own organization so that their issues can be focused upon.

  9. These white gays are akin to the white feminists. They want rights alright but for their fellow white gays. They couldn’t give a shit about black gays unless it is to sexually fetishize them. A gay guy at work likes to give the impression that he is down for the black folk, in some instances he can mouth the white anti-racist party lines. However, I have his number as he constantly informs me he prefers black men. That is your first clue. He claims not to like other white men. He even referred to white gay men who like black men as ‘night riders’. I asked him if he thought something was wrong when he claims to only prefer black men? He couldn’t answer me. He even goes as far as to deride fellow white gays. I met one of his ex boyfriends by chance and all I can say is there are self-loathing black gays out there. This guy was 6’3 and ripped! I did a double take and thought to myself; ‘why in hell would a good looking black man go out with a skinny ass less white man?’ I guess they mirror a lot of these interracial heterosexual relationships when it comes to self-hatred. I digress.

    There’s no moral hierarchy to oppression.

    Oh yes there is ‘Mikey’. Typical white counter arguement, a dodge if you will. A ploy to keep the white anti-racist on top within the movement, them and their brainwashed ‘coloured’ minions. Nice on its’ face but never in practice. Many white ‘anti-racists’ use this dodge to get the upper hand in the oppression Olympics. I an quite conversant with the ‘oppression Olympics’ I find it distasteful that they compare themselves to the Civil Rights movement for a start or any black social movement for that matter. The face of the gay movement is a white man. Proposition 8? A joke their reaction. They were calling the odd black person in the street niggers and protesting outside the Moron church(two groups of loons created for each other). Them and the few kerchief head gays who accompanied them. Funny they didn’t go to the ‘black’ neighbourhoods to ‘protest’ nor any black churches. In hindsight, that would have been comical.

    For you to so casually dismiss what they’ve gone through, and continue to go through, just because it hasn’t been the same or as bad (in your opinion, of course) as what you’ve gone through is the same technique of invalidation that whites use on the black community.

    So what? It’s time black folk looked after their own regardless of orientation instead of giving any time to whites and non-black lackeys who use them to further their cause whatever their ilk. I don’t give a shit about whites as a group. The face of the gay movement is that of a white man or woman. You see, there really isn’t much difference between white gays and straight, another false social construct, this delineation created to enhance the white man’s power. Whites are starting to realize that their numbers are diminishing and they need all the help they can get. White gays, although gay are still white. They want the same power to look down on blacks as their straight counterparts do. It pisses them off to no end that they can’t. The ones who mouth ‘sympathy’ for the black gay are probably looking for a leg-over. Even if they aren’t who gives a shit? At the end of the day, white is right for these clowns.

    As for blacks being ostracized within their own communities, who taught the blacks this ? The white man! The white heterosexual is just as homophobic but they hide it better. The almighty dollar rules and the powers that be realize this with the supposed buying power of the white gays. This is what will give them equal rights, not anything based in morality. It all comes down to economics and extending white privilege. Nothing more, nothing less. Oh, I doubt they have welcomed black gays with open arms unless it is to use them to further their white racist aims.

    White privilege comes in many forms and in varied degrees. The white gays have more privileges than blacks, gay or not. In short, I couldn’t give a shit about the white homosexual or their heterosexual counter-parts they are made for one another. Their non-white minions are almost as bad except they have been brainwashed by the white supremacist establishment.

  10. You can’t compare the historical slavery,rape,lynching and Jim Crow that black people have faced—to the plight of homosexuals. It’s an insult to the pain and suffering my ancestors went through! Gays want to get married? Fine do your thing. I could care less. But don’t you dare say it’s the same struggle. Most of Hollyweird is pro-gay anyway. So homosexuals have a whole industry behind them. The mainstream media is doing their best to normalize gay/lesbian/transgender culture. While no black person in Hollyweird can even green-light a film. There’s also over two million black men in prison. Prisons are an industry and black men are the raw material. Also 1/3 of black and Hispanic children live in poverty. And the black unemployment rate is always double what it is for whites. My point??
    My point is our suffering is not just in the past–it’s in the present. So you can NOT compare the black struggle to the gay struggle. Period! I’m done!

  11. @Wanpimao Ellen has said on one occassion that she won’t be put ‘on the back of the bus’ ever again WHAT?! And you should have read some of the angry vile things Savage said after Prop 8 passed. The fact is most of the time when other oppressed groups speak esepcailly white gays they talk as if black people have never struggle through anything. Or they downplay and trivialize how bad things were for black people you can NOT expect sympathy from me as you insult me. What you said about it doesn’t work that way can mean me too. And yes when you bring me into your argument I have every last little right to comment on what you say that goes for everybody esepcially white folks. It’s up to me to pick my battles not anyone else particularly those who smile in my face then spit on my shoes the next minute. I won’t be the pretend ally of people who whine about isms one minute then engage in them the next and that was my point.

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